Grind. Required fields are marked *. If more corrosion resistance is required then S110V is the way to go. You wouldn’t want to baton wood with S110V when you can use something like 3V. : 602 415 932, Po -Pá 7 - 15.30 But I can get the S90 decently sharp. 440c is also a fairly similar steel composition wise so I don’t know why that’s ranked way below. Give me a basic steel that requires basic tools to sharpen to be used for basic tasks knives were mean’t for. A lot of it is contextual, some steels perform better for one task while another might excel at another. my original corrosion resistance experiments. However, a revised version of the steel was released, and the datasheet was revised in July 2010. The reasoning and test results seem totally convincing, but I can imagine companies preferring to stick with the steel makers reccomended heat treatments. The 11V steel would still be an upgrade over S90V for corrosion resistance because of the higher Mo in solution (see the Molybdenum section later on in this article). So the amount of Ni and Mn needs to be kept to relatively low levels so that a good combination of hardness and corrosion resistance can be obtained. Spyderco Plain Edge M390 Blue G-10 Paramilitary 2 Bento Box Shop Exclusive: $217.95: Out of Stock: C81GPBLBK2: Spyderco Plain Edge M390 Black Blade Blue G-10 Paramilitary 2 Bento Box Shop Exclusive: $236.00: Out of Stock: C81GPDBL2: Spyderco Plain Edge CPM-S110V Dark Blue G-10 Paramilitary 2 : SALE* $280.00 $196.00 The first steel we’re going to look at is S35VN, and one of the best deals on this steel comes in the form of the Cold Steel Code 4. N/A. Ambi. Even with it being a non-stainless steel, M390, CPM-20V, and CTS-204P still don't perform as well. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. is there is a heat treatable knife steel have a corrosion resistance equal to 316 or even 304 steels ? For the record, I think the work you’ve done is great, and I don’t mean to naysay your information. If s90 is similar to s110, I prefer the m390. Because Crucible already had steels S90V and S125V prior to S110V we have to discuss briefly the history of those steels. 22:06. About Us; The Corporate Commitment; HII Philosophy of Coaching; Meet the Founder Disadvantages: Relatively difficult to sharpen. However, I have some speculation about why the composition was changed. I don’t know of any other powder metallurgy steels that even have as much as the 3% in the current version of S110V. M390 steel is very resistant to corrosive … Nice chart. looks like you are missing cts-204p. The patent for the steel was first filed in 2006 by inventors Alojz Kajinic, Andrzej Wojcieszynski, and Maria Sawford, all of Crucible Steel. Good to hear so far. The matrix of high speed steels contains only between 0.4-0.6% C , so 0.5% C seems to be enough for reaching high hardness . Re: S110v vs M390 pm2 Post by Chumango » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:06 pm PayneTrain wrote: So basically you've got one steel which I consider more user friendly for a little more money (M390), or one even more extreme performer for a little less (S110V). Become a patron and gain access to awesome rewards including early access to articles or a Knife Steel Nerds mug! Metallurgy and Testing of Knives and Steel. I can t personally judge the tendencies for chipping. Another benefit of a partial replacement of vanadium with niobium is that the carbide size is reduced. It works pretty well (albeit a bit slow) on S30V. So why should Maxamet be considered more premium than M390? this should be called “super steel” . why didn’t just replace the nickel in 316 steel for example by cobalt to make such steel “hardenable” ? S90V VS S110V. I would like to note that purely for comparison purposes, stainless steels will be ranked better than their non-stainless counterparts simply because of corrosion resistance. As mentioned in the article deburring is mostly an effect of retained austenite, and the recommended heat treatment for the steel isn’t necessarily the best for avoiding it. This comparison conveys that Maxamet goes for extreme edge retention while sacrificing properties in other areas; while the S110V steel aims for consistency in all areas. All of the following experiments were performed on the later version of S110V, as that is all that is available to purchase. And in the more recent comparison directly with M398, S110V again performed similarly. M390 vs S110V: I have a knife with M390. The Spyderco Manix 2 is a robust, highly ergonomic EDC knife designed by Eric Glesser. ... CPM-S110V. 154CM, dating back to around 1959, had 4% Mo though the Mo addition was to maintain hardness at higher temperatures in bearing applications, not necessarily improved corrosion resistance. It is extremely tough and hardy, meaning it will last a long time. Elmax. There was a somewhat surprising and little discussed composition change with S110V, for mostly unknown reasons (though probably related to manufacturing). S110v for sale here at Blade HQ. I will discuss the differences after describing more about the general design of the steel. … This specific variant is the G-10 model in CPM S110V steel. In heat treatments of S30V, S35VN, S45VN, and SPY27, an increase in austenitizing temperature was found to increase both hardness and toughness, so this result would be consistent with that. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Therefore, the approach with S110V was to have a combination of vanadium and niobium to improve corrosion resistance as much as possible while avoiding issues that come along with excess niobium. Maxamet Vs. s110v. Learn more in this article about carbides. Don't get me wrong, I love me some D2 and M4, but I'm not too big on rust. If anyone hasn't seen Larrin's site: https://knifesteelnerds.com/. In terms of carbide differences, the total carbide content was slightly increased in the final version, primarily from an increase in chromium carbide (labeled M7C3 below). S90V M390… CPM-S110V. STRENGTH VS. TOUGHNESS. And with some users reporting difficulty in deburring S110V (usually means high retained austenite), I’m not sure I would actually recommend heat treating S110V from 2150°F despite the apparent superior hardness-toughness balance. For that reason we get the excellent Manix 2 with S110V… It's a close tie, but Maxamet wins in the end. UNIMOS CR, spol. $260.00 $182.00. The S110V is often cited as the most similar steel type with the Micro-Meld Maxamet steel. Not to upstage the OP; these conversations are, IMO, productive exercises for a community and there's always room for one more chart so long as we can agree on ways to make it a good one. I’d be interested in seeing where these rank as well. In my original edge retention article I speculated that perhaps the smaller carbide size was the difference and I made some comparisons with the size of the abrasive particles used in the testing. We don’t stock M390 but we can make a knife out of M390. We are launching a slip joint folder next month and the blade would be made out of RWL34. I have 3 spyderco Native 5’s in S110V, S90V and in Maxamet. Additionally, people often associate … S110V and S90V are my favorites in the very high edge retention stainless steel category, depending on the level of corrosion resistance that is necessary for the application. It is made in Golden, Colorado and is available in a range of steel, handle, and lock variants. Instead, the inventors of S110V used cobalt, which is an austenite stabilizer at high temperatures but does not increase retained austenite when quenching to martensite, unlike Ni and Mn. Since its introduction it has been extremely popular and quickly rose to flagship status. We’ve had a few customers that said with N690 they skinned a few animals and kept a great edge. I would do some more digging on the H1 edge retention. Settings. It could be that Crucible decided that the niobium was too close to the danger zone. However, S90V and the modified S110V (labeled 11V) have 11.5% Cr in solution while S110V (9Nb-3.5Nb) has 12.3% Cr in solution, which would provide better corrosion resistance. Over the years there have been a vast number of variations and sprint runs using various steels and handle materials.Steels have run the gamut from ATS-34 back in the 1990’s to CPM S30V in the early 2000’s and now the cov… So why should Maxamet be considered more premium than M390? an example is an old grade called vasco MA the matrix of M2 steel . Keyboard Shortcuts - click to see the list. I used Jmatpro software to calculate a steel with the same compostion of 316 stainless steel : 18%Cr + 2%Mo but with replacement of nickel with only 5% cobalt and 0.5% carbon . Toughness could absolutely be used to describe either the steel's ability to resist breaking or it's ability to resist constant wear. It uses third generation powder metal technology and developed for knife blades requiring excellent corrosion resistance and very high hardness for excellent wear resistance. Spyderco Manix 2 Lightweight S110V Dark Blue FRCP C101PDBL2 . I continued on cutting and checking every 20 cuts for down force and edge damage along the way. Typically instead the steel designer increases the level of carbon to the point that the steel can be austenitized. I can get the S90 much sharper than the S110. The S30V, S35VN and S110V models are all readily available, but I'd either need to wait for another M390 (or its equivalent) sprint or look on the secondary market. That's what I hear a lot about H1, especially if it's serrated and how it develops a "working hardness". 3.07" (78mm) Weight. Advantages: Extremely high wear resistance and corrosion resistance. S30V is not in the same wear resistance class as the other steels, but the design of that steel may have influenced the others so I included it. Your email address will not be published. Spyderco Plain Edge M390 Blue G-10 Paramilitary 2 Bento Box Shop Exclusive: $217.95: Out of Stock: C81GPBLBK2: Spyderco Plain Edge M390 Black Blade Blue G-10 Paramilitary 2 Bento Box Shop Exclusive: $236.00: Out of Stock: C81GPDBL2: Spyderco Plain Edge CPM-S110V … They're organized roughly with the best steels at top, and going on down the line. I have owned the particular version of the knife with the S110V … In previous corrosion testing I performed, I found that the effect of Mo topped out at a certain level, but it would be surprising if Crucible also came to a similar conclusion. Thanks to Aaron @ Gough Custom, Aaron McVay, Mark Scott, Jeffrey St. Claire, Grant Seim III, and saiiiiiii1 for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! Something like M390 … Just saying it’s not so black and white. CPM S110V (Crucible): EoS = 1, ER = 10, Rc = 60 - 62; ... VS (very sharp) ES (extremely sharp) Here is a simple method I use to evaluate the sharpness of a knife and what I mean by these degrees of … While M390 does have a higher overall value than Maxamet, the way I see it is that Maxamet has higher edge retention and wear resistance. One of the major changes that was being made to S110V when compared to S90V/S125V was the addition of niobium. Somewhat surprisingly, they both resulted in identical toughness despite the higher austenitizing temperature leading to higher hardness. Is “Ease if Sharpening” part of “Toughness?”. S110v for sale here at Blade HQ. Newbie; Posts: 26; I'm a sharp craftsman! Spyderco Manix 2 Lightweight Maxamet Gray FRCP C101PGY2 ... Spyderco Manix 2 Limited Satin M390 … Note that the values below are normalized to the hardness of the tested toughness specimens. However, an increase in both Cr and Mo means a significant improvement in corrosion resistance for S110V. An alternative to r/knives. Bohler M390 is widely revered as being the best all-around knife steel, which has led top companies to widely utilize it in higher end knives. M390 vs S90V (CPM S90V) M390 … but the hardness is limited to only ~ 35 HRc . Plus the m390 isn't as abundant as s110v … A similar comparison was made in the patent, as 11% V is roughly equivalent to the V-Nb combination in S110V. Samior GP035-CFD Small Slim Folding Pocket Flipper EDC Knife, 3.5 inch M390 Black Stonewash Drop Point Blade, Carbon Fiber Handle Liner lock, Low Profile Gentleman's Penknife, Blue Pocket Clip, 1oz. Originally conceived as a heavy duty workhorse with G-10 scales, steel liners, and a back-lock, the Spyderco Manix was reinvented in later editions as a lightweight model of the same proportions. M398 Steel. S90V VS S110V. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. $135.00 $ … There are other elements that can stabilize austenite as well, notably carbon, nickel, and manganese, though those elements also increase retained austenite. 3.8oz (108g) Blade Thickness. The reduction in Mo from the original version (3.5%) to the final version (2.25%) likely means that these values are no longer accurate. Para Military™ 2 G-10 Dark Blue CPM S110V. Ball milling is used to refine carbides when they are added directly to powder, such as adding tungsten carbide to steel powder prior to HIPing. maxamet steel vs m390. CPM S110V (Crucible): EoS = 1, ER = 10, Rc = 60 - 62; I have no experience with Elmax steel, but I have four pocket knives with D2 blades.  Originally developed by both Chris Reeve (a world renowned knife maker) and Dick Barber of Crucible Industries, S30V is a martensitic powder-made stainless steel. G-10. Yes–I own knives in varied higher end steels, but I really do not care for them at all compared to my basic steels. To put S110V into context, we should compare the composition of the steel with previous Crucible products to see how the evolution led to S110V. Regardless, the edge retention of the steel is high and perhaps worrying about whether or not it is as good as S90V isn’t of practical use. M390. I dunno man this list already looks kinda gross. CPM-S110V … I put the two together, because I see toughness as being resilient to wear and tear, more akin to edge retention, but not quite the same. M390 exhibits excellent edge retention, corrosion resistance, and high level toughness. Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Crucible CPM S110V, Crucible CPM S30V, Crucible CPM S90V Version 4.36 Or maybe they thought it gave a bit more “factor of safety” to ensure full austenitization would be possible. I don’t know the cause but I’m convinced it’s a real effect. I'm a bit hesitant to add any of the Damascus/damasteel varieties just because of what they are, but I'll see what I can find. 07/10/18 - Added CTS-204P, ATS-34, "Chinesium", 8CR13MoV, 440C, 420HC, and K490 Microclean, 07/10/18 - Added note about "Ease of Sharpening", 07/10/18 - Adjusted values for 440C, AUS-8, AEB-L, and Chinesium, You forgot the best stuff around, “Chinese stainless steel”. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. the results says that the retained austenite was only 7% . All of this in combination with the powder metallurgy technology gives S90V a relatively fine microstructure for good toughness along with high wear resistance from the high vanadium content. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). It cut aggressively and clean making a loud crunching sound. adding niobium carbide “if all regarding problems solved” to this steel can push hardness/edge retention to a very high numbers . Special shout-out to u/Darkdistroi for the inspiration and keeping me occupied at work last night, it was slow. I have a Salt knife and people grossly underestimate how it holds an edge. You can see that the carbon in solution is similar across the three grades, meaning each would achieve similar hardness. Sheath. S110V has somewhat more carbide than S90V, making it even more impressive that the carbide size is finer. What austenitizing temperature did you use? M390. The full flat grind is, as usual, very nice. Current steels in use- CPM- S90V, CPM S110V, CPM REX 76, CPM 20CV, AEB-L, D2, 440C, 1095, 52100. Whether this was due to a problem that was observed in production or simply being cautious I am not sure. I also still catch a good amount of it having pretty bad edge retention, and how it scratches extremely easily. Sort by: Spyderco Manix 2 C101GPDBL2 Folding Knife, 3.375" Plain Edge CPM-S110V Blade, Dark Blue G-10 Handle. The Maxamet steel in considered as a “Super Steel”, So it’s a High-end Alloy steel, with an uncommon chemical composition, but I can say that the closest one to it is the CPM S110V(even if it’s stainless steel), in exception of wear resistance; the Maxamet is a great match for the S110v … Feel free to give recommendations on steels to add, call me out on my bullshit, or whatever. AEB-L should be higher on this list...Certainly more so than VG10. Advantages: Extremely high wear … If they found a small amount of ferrite in S110V that would have contributed to the decision to increase Co, of course. I didn’t mention clogging of the nozzle in this article as that is not the only issue. Different steels will transform to austenite at different temperatures. United States. This improvement in corrosion resistance was expected based on the modifications with Nb and Mo that were described earlier. Spyderco Manix 2 C101PDBL2 Folding Knife, 3.375" Plain Edge CPM-S110V … S110V: Spyderco Manix 2 Lightweight; CTS-XHP: Cold Steel Immortal; Sleipner: LionSteel SR-2A; LC200N: Spyderco Native 5 Salt; M390: We Knife Company Streak ; S35VN: Cold Steel Code 4. That being said, there are too many sharpening mediums and techniques out there to make a relative comparison of that at this time. I think it might be better with just throwing in a completely separate entry for "H1, Serrated", seeing as most of the complaints I hear are about plain edge H1. What it is: M390 stainless steel, a powder-metallurgy material produced by Bohler-Uddeholm, is widely regarded as a "super steel" for its properties and performance. I have 2 spydercos in 110 and maxamet as well, and they have crisp edges as well. As a result, it is harder for manufacturers to work with. They're super niche steels, but I think Vanax 37 and S125V should be on there. Matching 316 corrosion resistance while also reaching 60+ Rc would be very difficult even with cobalt. Also m390 is a true stainless and being in Florida, I'd recommend m390 based purely on the stainless aspect. Here's a little chart that I'm going to try and keep up with comparing knife steels. Home > Knives > Steels. Build. ... Bohler Uddeholm M390. That article explores a lot of aspects about cobalt because there isn’t much of a good reason to be in VG10 at all. In the end it cut 1,080 cuts on 5/8” manila rope with no edge damage and would still slice phone book paper. As far as "Ease of Sharpening" is concerned, generally the more wear resistance and toughness a steel has, the harder it is going to be to sharpen. Previous steels like S60V, Elmax, and M390 all had 17-20% Cr which gave them more chromium carbide and less vanadium carbide. This might be happening because the knives are from different manufacturers, using different heat treat and blade grinds? I have two Spydercos in S110 and a Benchmade in S90. When knife steel is heat treated you have to heat it to high temperature to “austenitize” the steel prior to quenching to transform the steel to hard martensite. Haven t used the manix xl that I have with s90v, but my manix2 with s110v is very hard to sharpen compared to any other steel I have. My Native 5 in Maxamet is the only one of my 3 Native 5’s that I have had Rockwell tested and it came in at 67 HRC. This high-performance alloy offers very high wear and corrosion resistance, yet remains extremely easy to sharpen and maintain. I often reference this article, which has similar charts. The lock is made up of a few components. Best wheel for Ultra Premium (S110V, S90v, M390, etc) « on: January 24, 2019, 07:40:26 am » I'm ready to purchase a T-8, but I am in the initial stage of learning about different grinding materials for working on the higher end blades I have (S110V, S90v, M390… I have a spreadsheet of all of the heat treatments I have done in the past along with ThermoCalc estimates of elements in solution. I did a large number of edge retention experiments which were summarized in this article, and I also added M398 which was discussed here. In the custom knife making world it is common for makers to select a few particular steels and use them in an almost exclusive fashion. Folding Knives with M390 Steel Automatic Knife Ordering Agreement IN COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL STATUTES , KnifeCenter, Inc requests that you read carefully the requirements set forth below, and … Same techniques and tools – DMT plates, ceramic rods, diamond paste strops. But I still don’t know for sure why S110V wasn’t as good as S90V in testing. To look at this difference I used ThermoCalc to estimate the amount of carbon, chromium, and molybdenum in solution with S90V, the patent version of S110V (2.8C-14Cr-9V-3.5Mo-3.5Nb-2Co), and then a modified version of S110V which has 11% V instead of 9%V-3.5%Nb (2.8C-14Cr-11V-3.5Mo-2Co). There are no knife steels with corrosion resistance equal to 316, perhaps Vanax or LC200N approaches 304 but it depends on what type of test is being performed. This was not necessarily a new discovery; it was long known in austenitic stainless steels that high Mo improved “pitting resistance,” and steels intended for seawater applications typically need high Mo. I didn’t know how realistic is Jmatpro but I’m sure that 0.5% carbon should secure 55-60 HRc hardess . You can see the difference in the micrographs below. Knife Steel Chart Mobile: Mouse over element names to get quick help on its effects in the alloy. And - and this is not a popular opinion - S110V isn't necessarily better than S30V. Furthermore, there is some chromium present in vanadium carbide, further reducing corrosion resistance. The changes were likely made to improve “manufacturability,” such as issues with gas atomization, forging, or annealing of the steel. Tip Carry Position . M390 for me really requires time to do things by hand using diamond hones. While some steels might have incredible strengths, they may also have weaknesses. But S30 at least eventually gets sharp, S110 never does (for me). Like many other very high wear resistance stainless steels (S90V, M398) it was developed for plastic injection applications which necessitate a combination of high wear resistance and high corrosion resistance. And if the formation temperature is too high, carbides will form in the melt before the steel can be gas atomized to form the powder. Larrin, you could put your book’s cover photo on the top right cornor of every page with hyperlink, like the wood-database dose. Both of these steels are a real bear to sharpen up! Knife Steels Crucible CPM S110V, Crucible CPM S30V, Crucible CPM S90V Version 4.36. Chromium, Vanadium, Niobium, and Molybdenum are all “ferrite stabilizers” which means that they raise the temperature at which austenite will form, because they stabilize the typical room temperature phase of steel and iron called ferrite. But the chromium increase was more than was necessary to achieve a similar amount of chromium in solution (see the table below), and they also decreased the Mo content by a similar amount to how much the Cr was increased (from 3.5 to 2.25%), so the reason for that change is not completely clear to me. In my original corrosion resistance experiments with 1% saltwater I found S110V to have very good corrosion resistance, certainly a significant upgrade over S90V and S125V, and being similar to M390, another grade with very good corrosion resistance. This Manix 2 uses Spyderco’s own caged ball bearing lock. S90V VS M390. The latter may … With S110 you have to battle burrs just like S30. Also, I left out a lot of low-end steels because they're boring, and it really just isn't worth it. However, this steel has high hardness and corrosion resistance which can mean excess retained austenite which sometimes leads to inflated toughness values. The carbide volume of S110V is closer to S125V which is significantly coarser. Shop thousands of quality pocket knives from all the top knife brands including Benchmade, Spyderco, CRKT Cold Steel and more! They are inversely related much more often than not. I tested two conditions of S110V, one austenitized at 2050 and another at 2150°F, with both tempered at 500°F. Go buy one for yourself, and everyone you know, as a Christmas present. That sounds low to me though I haven’t used JMatPro in the past to predict retained austenite. However, what is surprising is that it did worse than S90V. This dimension of sharpenability strongly affects my choice of steels. Folding Knives with M390 Steel Automatic Knife Ordering Agreement IN COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL STATUTES , KnifeCenter, Inc requests that you read carefully the requirements set forth below, and agree to this prior to your purchase or receipt of any automatic opening knife from our company. But not S110. I’m eventually going to stop plugging my book Knife Engineering in every new article, but that day is not today. With S110V having quite a bit of each of those elements the steel cannot be fully hardened when it has no cobalt in it. Chromium carbides are softer than vanadium carbides and therefore contribute less to wear resistance.